How to Be a Friend

Transcript

Katie: Hey, we're Katie and Caitlin, coming to you from our library living room. We are here not just as children's librarians, but as people who are parenting our own children.

Caitlin: Each month, we'll bring a new conversation about parenting with helpful resources from our library and beyond. This is "Your Family, Your Library," and we're your librarians.

Katie: Before we get into this month's topic, we want to remind our listeners that they're pretty good at finding resources. And we have experience parenting our own kids. We are not child development experts. Our choices don't need to be your choices. There's no judgment here. We're all just doing our best with the health and well-being of our families in mind.

Caitlin: That's right. So today we are talking about friendship. Then how how do we make friends? And it's very what's the right word? The timing is really good, because I know that my kids just started school. It's a whole new year and it's a whole new landscape. And for your kids, it's a whole new school, right?

Katie: Yeah, it's a whole new school. And so far, so good. I mean, we're feeling good. Last week, we had a kind of very informal social. We got to meet one of the teachers and some parents and stuff like that and some of the kids. So it was good for us to have that kind of intro into the community.

Caitlin: You know, I-I'm the kind of person that needs a lot of information before I go into a new situation. I'm this way if I go to a restaurant for the first time, I like to Google the menu ahead of time just so I'm not caught off guard...

Katie: I'm the same.

Caitlin: What is that? Why can't we just be chill about.

Katie: I don't know. It's just like, you know, I need to know, like, I need to have time in process.

Caitlin: Yeah. I mean, I would like to have blueprints and schematics, too. Unfortunately, a lot of times that is not available to us. But what are you going to do? So I love those...So not not so much the like social aspect of the meet and greet, but I like to be able to go and see what the classroom is going to look like. I like to know where her desk is placed or Desi's desk is placed. I like to know the teacher and we were traveling last week, so we missed all of that information. We missed. That's not all. So not only did we miss, like the physical going into the building and getting the lay of the land. I missed the information packet in the mail. I didn't have that packet until after yesterday, which was the first day of school. So I was flying blind and that is not my comfort zone.

Katie: Yeah, that is hard.

Caitlin: It felt like a whole weekend of just like, Alright, I just got to buckle up and I don't know, weather the storm for all of that. Just roll with it and I, I, I don't roll with things. I'm not a roller.

Katie: I do with some things, but yeah, I think when you're starting, I mean, no matter if you're starting a new school or not, like a new school year is starting something new. And I think for yourself and also for your kids, I think it's hard not to have that like, kind of preset before everything began.

Caitlin: Guess what? Everything was fine.

Katie: There you go.  

Caitlin: Guess if I'm going to be nervous about it next year.

Katie: Yeah.

Caitlin: Yeah, I totally, I'm going to totally freak out in the same way. But everything was fine. I think as far as the teacher goes and the classroom grows, according to my kids, anyway, the limited amount of information that they were willing to share with me was "it was fine mom."

Katie: So how did Desi and Haven feel like? Were they anxious at all not having that kind of information beforehand, or were they...good?

Caitlin: That's a great question. And I got to tell you, I think about this a lot because I am the kind of person that picks up other people's energy. And I try not to put that kind of energy on my kids because I don't want them to pick it up. And I think I did a pretty good job because they seemed fine. I found a copy of Desi's schedule online and I was able to print it out for him. And even though it turns out that it didn't have his locker combination on it, which honestly would have floored me going into seventh grade, I would have gotten to school and just like wanted the earth to open up and swallow me if I didn't have that, you know, key piece of information. It turns out that you can just ask your teacher and they'll give it to you, and it's totally fine. They're fine with it.

Katie: That's cool. That oh, my gosh. That just brings up a lot of feelings for me because I remember starting in middle school. It doesn't like I know, especially sixth grade, but seventh and eighth, I had to be able to, like, go into the school to, like, make sure I could open it because...

Caitlin: Dude!

Katie: opening locks, it's  it's always been a thing for me and not in a good way.

And that would just keep me up at night, like being like, "oh my God, am I going to be able to get my locker open? Am I going to be carrying around like all of my life with me all day long? You know?"

Caitlin: Yes. I so, that's a special kind of anxiety, Right? And it's like the more you don't have the combination or the more you're like, I have to fiddle with it, the worse it gets. And the longer it seems like it's the same with typing. Like if I'm typing something and somebody is looking at me typing all of a sudden like I'm wearing mittens you know, I'm just like, like a bea trying to like type of manifesto, It's like not happening.

Katie: Or a muppet a muppet.

Caitlin: Like no! Like, you know, I'm actually like a reasonably smart person that can type words. I promise. It's not just like A-L-F-K, like, whatever, like, bang, bang, bang. I don't know. The kids were fine. They did great. It was not a big deal for them.

Katie: Seems like, they're teaching us stuff.

Caitlin: I guess. I mean, I got to be honest and say that is definitely not going to change my outlook in any way. But I am very pleased that both of them seem to be able to just roll with it. Devin is like that. My husband Devin is able to roll with whatever comes his way where I'm like...

Katie: Same with Mike, same.

Caitlin: It's good that we married these people because otherwise it would be...

Katie: But it drives me crazy. It's like, why is this not like, why are you not thinking about this like three days in advance? Why?

Caitlin: We  went to...Desi had a guitar showcase this weekend for his, the place that he takes guitar lessons and they...I guess it turns out, too, that rock-and-rollers are not great at like conveying technical information to you, I guess, or like it's like very concise, you know, expectations because we had pretty limited information about the venue and like where things were going to happen. Devin could not have cared less. He was fine to just roll in there and, you know, do whatever. But once again, I was like, we're going to a where and we're supposed to do when we get there. And it was like it seemed like there was an expectation that we were supposed to eat something. And I didn't I didn't know that we were supposed to eat something. And then the worst thing happened in the whole world, and that is that the waitress was annoyed with me.

Katie: Why was she annoyed?

Caitlin: Because I was like a bear wearing mittens. Like, I didn't know what I was doing. And I was like, I didn't know I was supposed to buy something. Is there a place that I'm supposed to sit if I'm not going to buy anything? And then she was like, I work here, lady. Clearly you're supposed to buy-which clearly I was supposed to buy something. It turned out fine. Once again. It turned out fine. Yeah. I'm sorry server wherever you are. Anyway, the thing that Haven was thinking about, the reason why I said, you know, 50 years ago before we went off on this tangent, the thing that Haven said that she was most concerned about for this year was making friends. And was she going to have a friend in her classroom. And and honestly, Desi's been pretty nervous about going to seventh grade. Here's me putting energy on him. I told him at one point that seventh grade was the hardest year for me when like my the entirety of my schooling, seventh grade was the hardest. And there were reasons that were extenuating. Like my parents got a divorce that year and I started a new school and then there were like the social things, like the best friend that I had all the way through elementary school started like getting into boys and stuff like that. And I was not there yet. So our relationship had a break. My parents relationship had a break and I was just like,

Katie: That's a lot. That's a lot of hard stuff.

Caitlin: It was a lot for seventh graders. Yeah. So like school, I don't know how much that actually had to do with it. I think it was more the everything, but he's had it in his head that seventh grade is going to be terrible and he's also like a little bit of a pessimist. So I think like that too was building up. But I will say that he got his schedule and found out that not only like his best friend, but lots of their other friends are in the same classes that he's in, and it has turned everything around for him. I mean, don't get me wrong, he's not zassed about going to middle school, but he's much more is passed than he was a week ago when he was just dragging around saying like, Yeah, I feel like I live in living in a nightmare world.

Katie: Yeah, I feel it's pretty common...I mean, I guess I feel like I understand that feeling because, I mean, like, kind of like what we were just talking about. It's always like the lead up to things is like you have, like your mind just gets going and you kind of think of, like, the worst, like doom possible. I'm, I think I'm a pessimist in that way, too, because I'm kind of always like, waiting for the next, like shoe to drop, you know? But it's always like, interesting to me that oftentimes, like, things just surprise you and it's like nothing like what you thought it was going to be or and I think I've found that a lot in parenting, too, which we've talked about, you know, with like potty training and all this kind of stuff, like all these things that you like think about and are just never want to happen because you don't want to actually go through it.

Caitlin: And then you wonder what all the fuss was about. It turns out that wasn't that big of a deal. Yeah, I think. Did we talk about this before? I can't remember who was talking about this, where I. I always felt like whenever the bad thing that was happening was happening, it was like 100 years. And then looking back on it, it's like that was like literally six weeks. That was like a phase that lasted six weeks and it seemed like an eternity while we were in it. I mean, I think that's true with like every school year too, you know? Yeah, like, oh, it's third grade, third grade forever. And then, no, it goes super fast. So how are your-are your kids good at making friends?

Katie: I think so. I think when Orson was younger, for him, it's like he had, like, zero inhibitions, you know, it was all just like, This is who I am. And like, yeah, like, come play with me, be my friend. And I feel like Edwin's a lot the same too. But I have noticed with Orson, like, as he's getting older, which makes sense, like he's a little bit, like, less like that. But I think, I think it's still easy for him to kind of find commonalities with people. Now it's like Pokemon or soccer, so it hasn't really seemed to faze him too much about like the pending school year. And I think everyone's been the same too. Like I asked him yesterday, did you meet anyone today? Like, did you make any friends? He's like, "mom, everyone's my friend!"

Caitlin: Oh my gosh!

Katie: I know. And and just like, of course they are like him. It's like that five-year-old-ness that, like, it just makes sense. It's like, yeah, of course everyone feels like a friend to you right now. I don't know. It's just like, when does I go away, you know? Or does it have to go away?

Caitlin: How much do you think language matters? And I'm talking about this specific language that teachers use in the classroom. So I was homeschooled for a long time. I didn't go to kindergarten. So like, maybe this was the thing when I was a kid, but it doesn't feel like it was a thing when I was a kid. So you tell me. But I noticed that when Desi started kindergarten, you know, way back when, the teachers call all the kids friends, all the kids in the classroom are friends, and it is just like hardwired into them. And I do think that there's something to that.

Katie: I do too.

Caitlin: Like that. Did that when you were in kindergarten, was it the same, or...

Katie: No, I think I mean, I was in kindergarten in the '80s and like, I feel like then classes are still broken down a lot into like, boys and girls.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Katie: So I feel like, I don't know, or tables or, you know, so it's kind of like a crapshoot. Like who am I going to be sitting with? Or like, who's not a girl? Or you know, I don't know. That's kind of how it felt a lot of the time.

Caitlin: I remember being very impressed with their curriculum when he was in kindergarten because there was just like big emphasis on togetherness and like, we're all spending time in the same room and how do we get along in that space, which I thought was cool. I like that. And I think it does help reinforce kindness a little bit. I mean, I think kids are sort of hard wired to find differences, but using that specific language and then doing other things like setting up a buddy bench...you know what a buddy bench is?

Katie: I don't.

Caitlin: So a buddy bench is this bench that if you're feeling lonely you go and you sit on it and this totally works, I swear. Like kids will come up and they'll be like, "come play with us," and they'll come, like, collect you off the bench.

Katie: I really like that idea because, I mean, obviously that can translate into anywhere and like any time in life, it's like you kind of see someone on their own, like, "yeah, maybe they want to be like that," but it's like, "hey, maybe we should go ask them if they want to join" or, you know, I don't know. I like that idea.

Caitlin: If you think about it in terms of those little kids not having, I don't know what's like fine motor skills for for friendship. I don't know what that would be, but like the sort of refinement of being able to find the nuance of like, how do I reach out to somebody else and make friends with them? Or how do I like, insert myself into this group in a way that is savvy, I guess, like, how do I how do I find an inroad? And then like when you get to a certain age, like you have to when you're an adult, you have to make those distinctions. Like you can't just start playing with somebody. You can't just, you know, walk into a coffee shop and sit down at somebody's table and be like, What's your favorite color? Which is absolutely what Haven does. You know, it's absolutely what she does. But that Buddy bench idea, you know, where it's like everybody plays with everybody and everybody is welcome, when you get a little bit older that concept goes away and you have to be able to figure out how to navigate those social waters. So like Desi was at a birthday party this summer and he's working on it. He's working on trying to figure out how to do it. But like there were some kids there that he knew that he was friendly with, but he was feeling shy and he essentially just sat on, you know, a nonexistent buddy bench. And the expectation was that those kids would come up and pull him into the fun, but they didn't, you know, for whatever reason, like they didn't notice him or they were in the middle of doing their own thing. And it was a party. And an expectation at a party is you go and be part of the social action. And he had a really hard time navigating that. So it was kind of interesting to have that. Yeah, that conversation with him, that's like you can't always expect other people to do the heavy social lifting. Sometimes you have to be the one that makes that first step. And it's hard, hard. We're moving into a space now where for a long time the friends that my kids had were proximity based, you know, like they're in these classes and so they're friends with these people or, you know, like we are doing whatever social thing. And the kids that are also doing that socializing are their friends. So now we're moving sort of away from that type of relationship into they're developing their own friendships based on interest. And what do you do if you don't like the kids that your kids are spending time with?

Katie: It's hard. I mean, to be honest, we are like kind of just now I feel like entering into that stage. So I haven't really come up on that a whole lot yet. So I don't know. I don't know that I have any, like, good answers for that.

Caitlin: I don't either. I mean, happily, I think I like most people. So it's not it's not a big issue. But I know that this has come up at our desk before, too. Like, how do we help kids develop healthy friendships and how do we help foster those friendships, I guess. It's tricky. It is tricky.

Katie: I mean, I guess I have experienced that, especially with my older son Orson. Like, maybe the kids don't play very nicely, like on the playground at school or whatever, or like he comes home feeling like looking visibly upset about something. And I don't know. I mean, I think for me it just comes down to like instilling like, "is this the type of person that you really want to surround yourself with?" If you don't like the if you're if you come away from spending time with someone not feeling good, I feel like that should tell you something. And like, I think that's something that we encounter through life indefinitely and I've even, you know, like, felt that way about friends I've had for a really long time, like from, like my younger years high school or even before. And it's like, you know, we became friends based on these people that we were like a really long time ago and not that like those things about us. Me still exist in different ways, but like we are different people and it's like, maybe this isn't somebody that I want to like really devote a lot of my energy to. Or if I come away, like every single time we talk or every time that we hang out and like, not feeling good. Yeah. Or not feeling like I'm being heard or being seen or being appreciated it for like, who I am now.

Caitlin: Yeah, that's a tough one to like. How do you, how do you stop being friends with somebody? I don't know. I don't have a good answer for that. But I do think there's something to be said for not forcing it. Our time is precious, and if you're spending time with people that don't make you feel good about yourself, then we shouldn't be doing that. And I guess that's the right message for our kids to, you know, our friends are supposed to make us feel good about ourselves and help us bring out the best, the best of us. Luckily, here at the library, we have a lot of really good resources. You know, for anybody who's struggling with friendships that don't feel all the way healthy or with, you know, how to make a friend, which I know we talked about some in our Social Anxiety episode, but we have a whole section in the picture book area that's called "Caring and Friendship." So...a wealth of beautiful picture books that are all about making friends, being a friend, having friendships. It's great. And I would also add to that that we have in our nonfiction section, books that are about social skills building. And if you are looking for something like that, which I, I absolutely dive into those books sometimes, you know, especially if one of my kids is dealing with something tricky, like we're not the first people that have ever walked this path. And thankfully there are experts that actually know a lot about it, and they have written books and we have them in our nonfiction section. So you can ask for those books at the kids desk. And we know right where to go. The "American Girl Care and Keeping" books are really good, and there's a whole other section about making and being friends, and they run the gamut from preschool, you know, like how do we initially make contact and, you know, like, what is, you know, what makes a good friend, just like from those like, blunt encounters, you know, before you have those fine motor social skills and then, you know, into middle school where I think it gets a lot more complex, like the the interactions get more complex and the social issues get more complex. So luckily we have stuff like that. And we also have in our self-help section upstairs books for grown ups about navigating this exact same issues, because it turns out it does not get easier when you're an adult.

Katie: It does not.

Caitlin: Why doesn't it get easier, Katie?

Katie: I don't know. Another picture book section that I wanted to cut to, as in our issues about moving, which I think is good. Like we Orson had a really close friend who ended up moving like right after kindergarten, which was really hard for him. And that section in particular has some like really good ones about dealing with those feelings and, and like how that changes the friendship. And there's one that I love in particular called an "In a Jar"  by Deborah Marker, which has like beautiful illustrations, but it's about these two bunnies, Llewellyn and his friend Evelyn, and they love to collect things, so they collect things in jars and they just like frolic around every day and like, spend time collecting, like, their favorite things, the most beautiful things they can find. And when Evelyn ends up moving away, that's kind of how they keep their friendship moving and like, keep in sync with each other by sending each other things that they found, which I love. So I think there's some really good picture books which I'll highlight in our book list that will make for this episode that kind of meld friendship with other issues that happen in life, young and old.

Caitlin: Yeah, I'm actually really looking forward to making this list. I have some really good ideas.

Katie: Read books, sing songs, and have fun and English and Spanish during this bilingual storytime designed for kids ages 2 to 5. Find out more in our show notes.

Caitlin: When we were talking about making this episode and what we were going to talk about. Every single person that I've told and I think you too, have said, "how do you make a friend, especially when you're a grown-up?" How do you make a friend when you're a grown-up?

Katie: It's hard. I mean, I think I have found I mean, whether I was like in my 20s or and and like after college, I think a lot of it was like by proximity, you know, with like, who, who am I working with or and like finding that kind of like commonalities, what you have with that person and like whether they actually pan out into something special is another thing. But I know I feel like that's where I've met most of my adult friends is in that respect.

Caitlin: I think that's probably, I think there are opportunities where you can select friends or sort friends based on interest. And maybe that's helpful because I was thinking about what you were just saying and how in college you're taking similar classes to people. So presumably you have some of the same interests or like at least you are sharing this specific experience that you can you can talk to her hang out with as a result of. But I guess like you could take a cooking class if that's your jam. It is not my jam. Or knitting or, you know, we have opportunities at the library that people can come and socialize during one of those opportunities, which I think is really cool, is together time that our colleagues Gudrun and Mary host and that's an opportunity for toddlers and preschoolers to play together in a really safe space in the library. And while they're doing that, caregivers can hang out and talk about whatever they want, you know, whether it's parenting, which when I had kids that age, that was kind of all I thought about. But yeah, anything else. So there's opportunities in social spaces like libraries for adults to bond. And one of the nice things about being a librarian here is that we get to see that sometimes. I mean, I definitely saw a friendship blossom in one of the programs that I hosted last spring. It was beautiful.

Katie: Yeah. And I think, you know, even between us and patrons, sometimes, like when you're working on the desk or if you're actually doing the program, it's like you have a time each week or every other week that you see this person. And like the conversation kind of continues. And I mean, though it may not be a friend that you would like go out and do something with, like there's a lot of those patrons that I have really look forward to seeing and having a conversation with and learning more about, and I think vise versa.

Caitlin: Hard same.

Katie: You know, it's like we kind of seek each other out in a way.

Caitlin: Yeah, and that's really cool. You're a kindred spirit. Yeah, I see you. I see what you're going through. Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes when that happens, it feels so good that I feel in those moments just a little sadness about being an adult where it's like you don't have that same freedom that you did when you were a kid. That is like, I'm going to focus my energy and attention on this person and they're going to be my friend, and I'm going to cultivate this. And now it's like, Oh, I see you. And I like you. You're really cool. And I do not have time to invest in this friendship.

Katie: Yeah, I think that that's one thing that kind of has felt hard to me about making friends through my kids because I, you know, I stayed at home with them for a while, and especially when we moved here, when Orson was like a year and a half, it felt really lonely to me. And I feel like sometimes it was hard to know, like, do me and this person really connect or is the only reason that we connect or whatever connects because of our children? I don't know. It always felt like a really hard place for me because I, it was a lonely time. Because like, there were, I could say, like maybe a handful of people that I would have like more deeper conversations with. But it still never felt for me like something worth, like truly investing in. And I don't know if that says something about, yeah, I don't know. Or just the the time of life that that is. It just felt hard.

Caitlin: It is a hard time. It was a hard time for me too, when I was mostly home and the kids were really little. Now I'm going back and I'm questioning all the friends that I had when my kids were preschoolers. Thanks for ruining that time, Katie. I'm just kidding.

Katie: For instance, well, a one friend for me and like, really good friend that came out of that was actually Orson's teacher, a preschool teacher. She she owned the small preschool that we went to, and we're still friends, you know, and she developed a really close relationship with Orson to a bit like I had the time to devote like, I like kind of helped with the library and the school. And I went in and did storytimes a lot. So I was able like I had the time and the space to cultivate that relationship. And she's not a mom. And I think we connected a lot on but through books and like our shared interest in that, and also like our shared interests and the well-being of my child too, to be honest, you know. But like, I don't know, I didn't come out of like the younger years of my kids with like a new set of friends for sure. You know, they're like people who are acquaintances, but no one really stuck. And I don't know.

Caitlin: I have some people who stuck, but I also felt like that was a transitional time in the same way that kind of going to seventh grade was a transitional time like it was, especially with Haven, because she's the person. She's the kid who I was home with more than Desi, but I was so I was in such a dark place, myself. I was pretty depressed. And I think like navigating those friend playdates with Daisy and having the parents there and trying to, like, not put my bad energy on, you know, the people that I was spending time with. That was such a hard prospect. I mean, just like the energy that it took to keep down the bad feelings while I was hanging out with other people, I think that sort of soured any lasting friendships. But I have a couple of people that that made it through that the kids are still friends and I'm still friends with them as well, which is really nice because that's I guess that's how you know, it's real. If they're still around after the rough stuff I guess. So we talked a little bit about how kids just like, walked up to each other and say things like, My favorite animal is a giraffe, and then they become instant friends. What if somebody did that to you? Like, what if an adult?

Katie: You know, it's like, I like to think I'd play along, but I, I think I kind of be a little snarky. But yeah, I was saying the same thing. It's like, why can't it be like that?

Caitlin: It's hard. You know what? I was talking to Gudrun about it earlier, though, and she reminded me about this article that was just in, I think it was in "The New York Times," and it was also on "NPR" where they were talking about how it doesn't really matter. Going in and having these deep friendships with adults is important, obviously, but you can have a meaningful encounter with other people in the world just on the surface, and that still accounts for a fair amount of goodness. So this psychologist was talking about how she you know, she was at a university and having a rough time. She felt like she was older than the other kids there and just wasn't feeling it. But there was a I think it was a hot dog cart person maybe, and she'd wave at the hot dog cart person every day. And even though she never bought a hot dog, which I find questionable, she still liked that interaction that they had. It made her feel good. And so she ran a study where she had people click a clicker every time that they had a social interaction with somebody else, even if it was just like very surface, like, you know, "Hey, it's great to see you," click, you know. And she found that people who had more clicks throughout their day, you know, who tallied up the most they had better days overall than people who had fewer social interactions.

Katie: I can understand that.

Caitlin: Yeah, I thought that was somebody who is pretty introverted. I thought that that was interesting.

Katie: Yeah, I think about that a lot, actually, especially in the kind of work that we do. I mean, for some people like that interaction that you have with them on the desk or on the floor helping them, something for some people like that's one of the few interactions that they're going to have every day. And I don't know, that's always for me, like, I mean, I think sometimes depending on like how we're feeling or like how an interaction is going, sometimes it can be hard to like, put your best self out there for everybody. But I don't know, I always try to think about that, like how I want to walk away from an interaction feeling and like how I'm making this person feel. And I think that's also what develops those like people that when you see them and it's like a very surface thing, but it's like, "oh, I remember you like we talked about this" and like that conversation can continue each time. I don't know. I just feel like surface relationships can often matter for some people as much as like a deep relationship. Because I think for some people, like that's what they have access to. just like they don't have like the family in their life or like close friendships. So it's like the way that we treat each other, even though those like very menial interactions. I think for some people they're not menial.

Caitlin: They're not for me. I mean, I don't think they are for you either. They're not for me. I, I was talking to Devin about this because I think he's kind of lonely, to be honest. I don't think he would mind me saying this. He's, he works a lot and he doesn't have the same kind of friendships at his job that I think that we have. And he doesn't work with the public and he is pretty extroverted. So I think he misses that friendly interaction that we have. And it's not always just surface. I mean, I was talking to this dad today who was came in with his kids and they asked me for some books and we got to talking about academic issues and different schools and Skokie. And I left feeling so uplifted at the end of the conversation, and it was literally like 3 minutes that that I thanked him. When he left, I was like, Thank you for talking to me about this. And I think I think he felt the same. I mean, it's those small interactions can be super meaningful. And I think Devin really misses that. So sometimes, you know, you and I have talked in previous episodes about how when we leave the job, we kind of want to go hide in the hole a little bit. And I think that's because even though they're they're small and they can be surface, it's a lot. And at the end of the day it's a lot of conversations and it's a lot of connecting. And so you got to recharge those batteries and I don't really want to go out and socialize after work. And I think Devin does want to go out and socialize after work because he doesn't have those same...

Katie: Days like that. Yeah, that totally makes sense. I think that's also to why maybe it's been harder for me to make friends as an adult at this point in my life other than the people at work, which I, I do consider me very good for.

Caitlin: Absolutely.

Katie: It's like the last thing I want to do is go home and like, make dinner for people to come over and, like, I don't know, It's just like, I know that sounds terrible, but also, like, I think I've always been someone who can, like, subsist on like just a few close relationships like that feels okay to me.

Caitlin: Me too.

Katie: Like I, my circle is small and I'm I'm okay with that. And I've always been okay with that. So I guess, like, it doesn't feel like, like a bad thing for me. Like I actually feel like really at peace in my life right now and like, maybe that's okay to, like, not be, like, out there, like, making all these friends because I feel like the people that are in my life right now are meaningful to me and like it's where I want to be focusing my energy right now.

Caitlin: I feel the same way. I like to keep my circle pretty tight and it is very shocking to me when I meet people that don't. I mean, they clearly have close friends too, and they want their circles really big. I don't have advice for you big circle people. Actually, I could give you the same advice that Haven gives me, and that is just go introduce yourself and ask if they want to be friends with you. Which is nice. That's a nice thing to do. I would probably like it if someone came up to me.

Katie: I think she'd say like, just go run together.

Caitlin: Yeah. If you want to play with somebody, see them on the playground and you want to play with them, just start running with them and then maybe you're playing tag and it's great so much fun.

Katie: It makes so much sense.

Caitlin: It does make so much sense.

Katie: I love it.

Caitlin: And I really do like to picture what it would look like for an adult. It's just something come up and start running alongside. "hey, I like your abs. What are you into? I'm a crocheter."

Katie: That Saturday Night Live skit.

Caitlin: It's real. Well, we have will link these articles in the show notes. There was another one that I thought was really interesting. That was because so many people had asked us, like, how do you how do you make friends and how do adults maintain friendships? And some of the other parents that I meet, you know, like in my kids walking groups and you as they're going to school, we kind of look out for each other's kids, which is really nice. But, you know, how do you how do you sustain those friendships? But "NPR" has five easy tips for making friends as an adult. And there's even a section in that article for introverts, and they talk about exactly what you said, Katy, which clearly you were just killing it, which is keep your circle tight and it's okay. It's small, but it's meaningful. I feel that.

Katie: Oh, I had I did have one question for you because I know you just visited. You have two friends. I live in Hawaii. Yeah, she just visited. And I'm curious because you've been friends since you were a little like, how? Since you live so far away, how do you keep in touch? And also, is it hard for you that they live close to each other and you live further from both of them?

Caitlin: Yeah, it's brutal. So I think for them it's really easy because they're sisters.

Katie: Oh, I did not know that, okay.

Caitlin: Yeah, they so we met and my, the older of the two is Greta and she and I became best friends in seventh grade. So I had a really rocky start to that year, like I've mentioned earlier. And she and I ended up she, I was at an overnight at her house. It was a birthday party, slumber party, I think. And this was like I think it was like 1989 or 1990. And so we all had rotary phones or like the push button dial. Everything was corded. And I think we were making prank phone calls, but we were all goody two shoes. And so we I think we were pretending to make prank phone calls. We weren't doing it for real. And we figured out, I don't know if you do you remember Star-69? So, like, you could figure out, you know, the last person that dialed you was by pressing Star-69 on your phone. It would give you the last number that called you. We found another code, and I don't remember what it was. I want to say Star-77. If you hit Star-77, it would ring your phone number. And so if you had an additional line in the house, they would it would sound like your phone was ringing. So we thought this was so funny. And just picture 12-year-old me and Greta, we are just like the biggest dorks you ever saw. "Hit Star-77, hit it!" And so then we would do that. And her parents would pick up downstairs, "Hello." And then we proceeded to be like, "hellooo. Is your refrigerator running?" So like, they're like "just like,I," they were profoundly unimpressed, but they did play along. We probably did it eight times. Like that is a lot of times to listen to your kid be an absolute doofus. Like also like just to to give an additional layer. Like they, they had a loft in their living room. So we were up in the loft. It's not like they couldn't hear us giggling upstairs. Like I'm sure they heard every aspect, but that really cemented the deal. I think for me and Greta, we we were insta-friends after that and Naomi is a little bit younger then than we are. She's so great is one year ahead of me grade wise, but we're only six months apart in in age and Naomi is three years younger than than we are. But she's one grade behind us, which is-she's very, very smart. They both are. Anyway. They they became really good friends later in life. Like once they get to high school. And Naomi and I became really good friends in eighth grade when Greta abandoned us for high school. So the three of us have been super tight since middle school. As far as how we keep in touch with each other, we're terrible at it. All three of us are just the worst, and I think it's just a testament to the like foundation of sisterhood that we have. I mean, they're every bit as close to me as my own flesh-and-blood sisters. Like I think about them all the time. They are inherent to my personality, like they are part of me and I am whole when we are all together. And I miss them with every fiber of my being. But we never talk to each other. We do not. We may be talk once every six months.

Katie: I hate talking on the phone.

Caitlin: I hate it too.

Katie: So it's really hard for me.

Caitlin: Yeah, I'm a texter and there's a six hour time difference between us, five or six hours, depending on the time of the year, because they're smart and they don't change. Luckily, like when we see each other, it is like no time has passed. Which is really nice.

Katie: I have like a handful of friends from like high school or from my time in New York where it feels like that to have like every we don't see each other very often. We don't ever really talk on the phone, but it's like, you know, four years have passed and we sit down and it's like we've been together this whole time. So that's great.

Caitlin: It is great. It feels great.

Katie: I felt really good.

Caitlin: I wish that they would move closer, but it turns out Hawaii's beautiful and they're not moving. Even though there are roosters that just like wander around in the wild crowing at like five in the morning.

Katie: Oh my gosh.

Caitlin: It's intolerable. They're like like, "we're used to it." How? How are you used to it? It's a lot...it's a lot of rooster action.

Caitlin: Did you know that getting messy with dirt and water is beneficial to a child's development? Join us Monday mornings at the library for Nature Play, where toddlers can have fun and explore natural science. Learn more in the show notes.

Caitlin: Katie, what kept you going this week or this month? We always say week, but really it's like a monthly podcast. What kept you going this month?

Katie: Yeah, we were able, me and Mike and the kids were able to go down to Indianapolis to see my dad. We haven't been down there in a really long time, especially considering how close we are, but, I mean in proximity, how close Indianapolis is. But it was really good. The boys had a lot of fun and we also went to my brother's house. They have a pool and it was so hot. So it was like just amazing to be able to like, stay in the pool all day. And yeah, it was it was just really nice. Like we didn't do any other sort of vacation this summer and it's been like work or, you know, the kids going to camp. So even though it was like a small break, it felt really good, like we all needed it.

Caitlin: Having a pool when you're a kid is like...

Katie: Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine.

Caitlin: It's like the cherry on the top of the sun. Like it does not get better. And especially when it's like your pool, like, even better.

Katie: I'm a little, I'm a little bit jealous. I'm not jealous of the money it takes to, you know, to get said pool or take care of it. But it's life changing. No kidding.

Caitlin: I want somebody...if I had a pool, I definitely wouldn't want to take care of it. It would just be like a scum bucket if it was my pool. I'm not good at.

Katie: Well, just for kicks. I, like, asked my brother like, you know, what things cost like each month and I about fell over.

Caitlin: So totally worth it?

Katie: Yeah I mean they're both doctors, so I mean, they have a little extra disposable income, which is good for them. Yes, but yeah, it wouldn't be sustainable for us to finance. Yeah.

Caitlin: But fun! Speaking of not sustainable for most of us, I just got back from Hawaii, where I was visiting Greta and Naomi and Juniper, and Greta, Naomi's spouses, who are also wonderful. But I'm in a little bit of a grieving period, I think coming back like a little jet-lagged and a little sad. So that's not my it's not keeping me going right now. It's it's a little bit holding me back. But what is keeping me going is I don't know if you've ever seen "Sharknado."

Katie: I haven't. I've heard of it.

Caitlin: It's not too late. You should totally watch it. And I would encourage you to watch it with Desi, who is a budding climate kid. Like, he really, really cares about tornadoes and he knows a lot about them. And so we watched "Sharknado" together for the last two days, and it was so funny. He was incensed like the entire like it wasn't even the sharks that were in the tornado. He was like, "a category five hurricane? Who are you kidding me? Who consulted on this?" I was like, "buddy, there's like a hammerhead. That's like flying through the sky and eating people like spaghetti, like. And you're bothered by, like, the miscategorization of..."

Katie: Oh my gosh.

Caitlin: "That's a that's an F3? Are you are you kidding me?" Like, it's so funny. He's very cute. And that movie is just incomparably stupid.

Katie: So is it supposed to be funny or is it just so ridiculous?

Caitlin: Yeah, I think it's supposed to be.

Katie: Because I kind of remember when I came out, but.

Caitlin: Like, they know it's really stupid. They, intentionally stupid. They know. They know there's just sharks like whipping around. There's three water spouts going at the same time and it's just sharks everywhere. And there's no, there's like zero continuity, like sharks are coming up through the sewers, like sharks are flying over buildings. Like they don't it doesn't matter. I mean, if you want to know how to,

Katie: Oh wow, it sounds epic.

Caitlin: it's totally epic. But I now know how to deal with a shark storm if it does come.

Katie: How?

Caitlin: Chainsaw.

Katie: Oh, like only natural.

Caitlin: What else would you use?

Katie: My gosh.

Caitlin: It's pretty great. It came out a long time ago. The theme song's pretty catchy, too.

Katie: I'll have to get one of those.

Caitlin: A chainsaw?

Katie: Yeah.

Caitlin: I think you could use a weed whacker if you got one of those. I can use the saw that I used to cut my bed. That's a handsaw. It probably doesn't matter. You could probably use whatever you want. If sharks are flying through the air, all bets are off. And honestly, I didn't think I would ever watch it. He was thrilled to know that. I think there's five "Sharknados." Sharknado three is called "Oh Hell No." Wait. How many Amber? Seven? There's seen Sharknado's.

Katie: What?

Caitlin: the theme song is like a Ramones rip off. It's like, "go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Gotta get away from the Sharknado."

Katie: This has been Katie and Caitlin with "Your Family, Your Library," produced by our friends Amber Hayes, and sound engineered by our other friend, Paul Knutson.

Caitlin:  And for all you listeners out there, if you would like to be best friends with us, you can email us at Podcast at School Library Dot Info. Tell us your favorite animal and your favorite color and we'd love to hear from you.

Katie: Bye friends.

Caitlin: Bye friends.

Show Notes
Show Date
Description

Katie and Caitlin share how they've seen their children make friends, and discuss how difficult it seems to make friends as adults.