Katie: Hey, we're Katie and Caitlin coming to you from our library living room. We are here not just as children's librarians, but as people who are parenting our own children.
Caitlin: Each month will bring a new conversation about parenting with helpful resources from our library and beyond. This is "Your Family, Your Library," and we are your librarians.
Katie: Before we jump into this month's topic, we want to remind our listeners that though we are pretty good at finding resources and we have experiences parenting our own children, we are not child development experts. Our choices don't need to be our choices. There is no judgment here. We're all doing our best with the health and well-being of our families in mind.
Caitlin: That's right. And this month, we are excited to be talking about siblings and birth order. And this is something that I feel like comes up over and over and over again, both at the desk and in our own personal lives. I've been going down this, like short video rabbit hole, like watching the Tik Toks, and I keep seeing these birth order videos compared...
Katie: The Tik Toks?
Caitlin: You know, that's what the kids are watching. Have you seen these, Katie? Where it's like, it'll be like one adult actor who is, like, portraying birth order in a family like, this is your oldest, and there's sometimes they're kind of funny. Sometimes it's like, yeah, yeah, we get it. But it's always like, the oldest kid is like portrayed as sort of being the rule follower. And then the middle kid is sort of the wild card, just sort of like jokester underpants on the head kind of situation. And then the youngest kid is like, whatever I wants I get. And not only Do I get it, but some caregiver is going to get it for me. and so and it's always the same thing over and over and over. And it's kind of interesting because I'm the oldest and I definitely relate to the, the rulesiness and sort of like the everything needs to be just so of it all. And my sisters, I'm sort of curious to know how they would feel about being portrayed in these other ways. I think there is some truth to it. I mean, that's like the nature of stereotypes, right? They're sort of grounded in some sort of reality.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: You're not number one, are you?
Katie: No, I'm number four.
Caitlin: And?
Katie: And the only girl.
Caitlin: And does that mean you get everything you want?
Katie: Well, I wouldn't say that. It was just a different relationship. You know, it's like I'm, like, nine and a half years younger than my oldest brother.
Caitlin:
Katie: Oh, wow. And then, like, basically five years from the closest brother to me. So they're I don't know, I think it was like the amount of years in between, but also that I was not a boy, that I think it was just like, a different dynamic.
Caitlin: So maybe to get a more like an accurate is not the right word, but like something that lined up more with like whatever these videos are stereotyping, you'd have to ask your brothers.
Katie: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I bet they would probably say that I did get a lot of what I wanted, and I got a lot of special attention just because, like, my mom and I were really close and I think, like having a daughter to have a relationship with was I mean, I can't put words in her mouth, but like, I mean, I always felt like special to her. And we did a lot of things with just her and I.
Caitlin: Oh. That's nice.
Katie: So I don't know. I mean...
Caitlin: I think it's different, right? Like. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I think my, my sisters do say is that every single one of us thinks that our experience was the hardest.
Katie: Yes.
Caitlin: Do you think that's true in your family, too?
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: Maybe. Maybe it's true. And it's just hard in all different ways.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: But I think looking at my own kids, you know, where Desi is the oldest, and he's definitely more. Is it that he is more rules-y and he is more driven by, like, following directions and making sure that, you know, like there's pretty clear like right and wrong with him. And Haven is a little bit more like in the gray areas.
Katie: Yeah. We're in the, it's the same with us too. That's really interesting.
Caitlin: But I wonder, is it, you know, is it because when you know, like Desi and Orson were little, we had that singular focus on them and we were able to really talk about, you know, like, this is right and this is wrong. And we don't do this thing because of, you know, X reason as opposed to, you know, like when you're already trying to parent one kid and the other kid is acting out or doing something, it's less like, let's sit down and talk about the ramifications of this actions and more like, you just have to stop right now. Like, this just has to end. But some of it has to be wiring because, you know, like, Desi's definitely had the conversation with me before. That's like, you know, she's doing, you know, whatever thing that she's doing that's taking him off. Why am I not parenting it in a way that, you know, I definitely would a parent did it had it been him. And it's wiring like, I can I can talk to her all day about ramifications and it's not going to resonate with her in the same way that it resonated with Desi. Like, she hears it but she doesn't. That's not you know, that's not the thing that she needs in order to get her to stop doing whatever it is that she's doing.
Katie: And I think, I agree and I think the thing when Orson does that, when he tries to be the parent, I think for Edwin, it's like double like, oh, no. Mom is saying it, but now you're saying it, like.
Caitlin: Now they love it so much, like some. And it's funny because, Desi finally got, like, a taste of his own medicine. Because he is. He's like me. I mean, he's very, like, goody two shoes. And, like, you know, he was like, Haven, meh meh meh. And she was just like, ugh. And I was like, bud, like, listen to yourself. And then Haven did it to him later. Like Desi, mom told you not to do it, though. And when he got so mad and I was like, see, it's not it's not fun. Like, you have to let me be the person that talks to her that way or, you know, talks to you that way. And now he'll catch himself like he'll do it. Then he'll be like, oh, sorry, Haven. Though it's kind of funny.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: But I get it. I mean, I totally thought my parents were doing a terrible job. Like, these kids are just running wild, and here you are doing nothing. It's definitely. Having my own kids is definitely giving me some context through which to look back at my own childhood. Yeah, like maybe they were actually paying attention. And it's just, you know.
Katie: Do your kids fight a lot?
Caitlin: No.
Katie: Like physically or like arguing?
Caitlin: No. Not physically, hardly any physical altercations a little bit. They like the squibble squabble. But I think they actually kind of enjoy it. But Devin and I are both pretty strict about how they talk to each other, so we shut it down pretty fast. If things start to get. Yeah, any kind of like, you know, it's like go to your corner or like go, you know, wherever. Just be away from each other until you cool off. Yeah. How about your boys.
Katie: I mean, they're not physical in the way. Like I want to hurt you. It's like everything is physical, with them. And it's really frustrating sometimes. I mean, sometimes it's fine. We just let them go because it's like they want to wrestle. They want to. But inevitably, someone starts crying. Yeah, someone gets hurt. And then it's like, see, this is what we're talking about. And then it's like, okay, they'll stop for like ten minutes and it's like, hey, let's go back to the couch.
Caitlin: And like, go for it.
Katie: You know? And then it's like, okay, when is the next person gonna like it? You know, lose their mind.
Caitlin: That stuff raises my anxiety. Like, no, like I just can't deal with a tussle. Yeah, I can't deal with it. Especially not indoors. Yeah.
Katie: Have you ever read the picture of "Friday Night Wrestle Fest?"
Caitlin: Yes.
Katie: Oh my gosh, we love that book. However, my kids cannot wrestle fast when I'm at home, so they when I actually used to work Friday nights all the time, they were like legit have a Friday night wrestle fest.
Caitlin: Oh my gosh.
Katie: They were like, make signs for it. yeah. Because like, I like you said with the anxiety. Like it totally ramps my, I'm like see like heads bashing. They're like blood fly. Like people biting each other. Yeah. And I'm just like I can't it's.
Caitlin: Just it's like chaos.
Katie: Yeah. But Mike joins in and I'm just like oh my gosh. Yeah.
Caitlin: So so sometimes that's a really interesting point. Like I think that there is some sort of like sensory benefit to doing stuff like that that I like, I can't process it myself. And I wonder sometimes if the fact that, like, I have such a hard line in the sand about it is a detriment. I'll tell you that when Desi, Desi has a really good friend and you know, all the way through Covid, like when we were at home, we would meet them outside and they would take pool noodles and just like, attack each other with the pool noodles. Like, it was so stressful. But there was something that he was getting out of that. Yeah. Like he loved it so much. It looked so chaotic and violent to me. Nobody got hurt and they just like. And they just wail on each other. Yeah. So I wonder sometimes if the fact that I don't let them express themselves in that way isn't detrimental in some way.
Katie: I don't know. But I also think it's different with like a brother sister...
Caitlin: Maybe.
Katie: Versus, I don't know though I my brothers, I mean we would go at it. Yeah, I know they're much older than me. I mean, not my oldest brother. My oldest brother is almost like a guardian type figure, like how is kind of like protected me and like, are the photos we have of when I was little. Like I'd be sitting on his lap, but the other two, it was like, I mean, like death match, you know?
Caitlin: So my sisters and I, we were physical with each other too, and I think we were really trying to hurt each other. And so that's part of my anxiety. Like, I don't want that. I don't want my kids to experience that because, I mean, when it hurts and to I feel like for me that I would get so angry that I would want to hurt them and that did something to me that I don't like. So I think there's, there's a place in me that's like, I don't I just don't want to go there.
Katie: It's a fine line for sure.
Caitlin: But I will tell you another story and that is that we went to. So Desi was probably 5 or 6 and we went to a family reunion. And his cousins are really close in age with him. One is the same age and one is like two and a half or three years older, and they're very much a tussle family. So like there was a lot of, roughhousing. And at one point Desi was just standing there and like the middle of the field, like, I don't know how to play with them. Like, I don't know how to be this kid that, like, can throw a football and then have other kids jump on top of him, you know? So that is sort of where I'm like, I think he's fine. I don't I obviously don't worry about it too much, but there is like a little part of me that's like, I really like took away this...maybe this like seminal part of.
Katie: But I guess it was like a big part of his personality. He would have found a way anyway. So, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Caitlin: That's probably true. I obviously don't lose sleep, but what he does, every once in a while, it pops up in my head like, Well, and to your point about, you know, is it is it gendered? Is it like because it's a sister brother? So his friend that he works with the pool noodle, has a sister and they are very much a tussle family as well. I think I coined that term tussle household.
Katie: Am I going to go like that? Yeah, it's more of like a gentle way. Through a nice way of putting it.
Caitlin: You know.
Katie: I don't know, it's like I just, I kind of oscillate between like being okay with it and being like, you know, it's kind of like a normal part of sibling relationship. And like, they share a room. It's like they're always together and it's like, it's not always like malicious thing, like, you know, it's also like a, you know, they can be fun and funny with it. But it is hard for me sometimes, like some somedays, like it's like sensory overload or like I just...
Caitlin: It's too much. Do they like each other?
Katie: They, I think they love each other, but worse and can be really hard on that one in terms of kind of the rulesyness and like kind of being a third parent sometimes. And I think their personalities are just different. So I think like sometimes that clashes a little bit, but they do have a lot of fun with each other. They do play with each other. And like, I guess for me, like I don't worry about it, you know, it's like every relationship kind of has its good sides and more negative science, but I don't know that they're fully negative. I think it's just like a way of working through differences and personality, which obviously can be physical with everyone throughout your whole life.
Caitlin: Right.
Katie: But I think it's like, I mean, it's kind of like your first intro into navigating relationships like that.
Caitlin: Yeah. I'm really close with both my sisters now, like very, very, very close. But it took us and we really wasn't until my mid 20s that I wanted to have much of anything to do, especially with my youngest sister and some of it's because we're wired really similarly, but differently enough that, like, those divergences are glaring when we don't get along. And it makes me really sad. Like, this is another thing that when I'm talking to my kids about trying to get along, it's like I missed out on so many years of friendship with these really, really cool people. I think because of whatever dysfunction was going on in our house, but also like our absolute determination did not get along with each other. So I hope that my kids continue to like each other. Like I think they like each other okay. I don't know.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: They get bored and when they're bored, that's when the fighting starts. Or like, does this happen in your house? Like, if I ask them to do a chore, they immediately start fighting. They're either hungry or they start fighting. Like you guys, come on.
Katie: Yeah, I don't know. I see them together. I think that there's a lot of love there.
Caitlin: Oh yeah.
Katie: Like when I see I mean, because obviously I don't see them in their home sphere. I see them in public. And I always see like, you know, Desi kind of watching out for her. And, you know, he does.
Caitlin: I think he does. He basks in her adoration, I think, like, she really worships the ground that he walks on, which is I think we talked about this in another episode, but something that definitely wasn't clear to me when I was little. I just thought my sisters hated me. But now I see how much she looks up to him and how much she likes him and just wants to be around him. And then when he won't let her be around him, that's when she starts lashing out and being kind of a jerk.
Katie: That's exactly how it was with me.
Caitlin: It's so complicated.
Katie: It's really complicated.
Caitlin: And it's really hard to explain that to somebody who's like, look, she just wants to be around you. And then, you know, it's like, well, then why did she, you know, call me a name? Or why did she slam her door in my face? It's like, well, because she wants that kind of attention so that you're not giving her. Yeah, but like, how do you, you know, when you're like, 12 or 11 or however old, like, how do you find the, like, emotional maturity to be like, oh, yeah, I can see that, that's exactly what's happening. It's like, no, I see exactly what's in front of me. And that is that she slammed the door in my face right.
Katie: Yeah. I've, I've had a conversation with not well, I would say Edwin too, because he's getting older now. he'll be seven in November. But like with your son, it's like one day you're really gonna be glad that you have this person in your life and that you have this relationship because, I mean, I know definitely with us, like with my mom's sickness and her death and like, just just life in general. It's like when I was having issues with my parents, for whatever reason, it's like I could reach out to one of them and get their advice or have them help me through, you know, so I just try to remind both of them, it's good that you have each other. Like, I know, sometimes it feels like it's like, not fair and...
Caitlin: Yeah.
Katie: Well, it's not an equal thing...
Caitlin: Because it's not. Generally speaking it's not.
Katie: Yeah. And that's the other thing that's hard for me is like when Orson, and Orson's really the only one that says this, but it's like, you know, you guys like, you guys like Edwin more than me.
Caitlin: No way.
Katie: But yeah. And it's like, I don't know how I think sometimes, like our expectations for Orson are a little different because he's like three years older. Yeah. But I don't know. It's always hard to like, hear that because it's like, I don't know where you're getting that from. You know.
Caitlin: I am so paranoid about it because I was really scared because I liked Desi so much, and I was really scared when I got pregnant with Haven, that I wouldn't be able to love her as much as I love him, and that's patently false. I like, I can't, I can't imagine feeling that.
Katie: I felt the same way.
Caitlin: But I still feel like I'm still nervous that she's going to pick up something like that along the way, you know, like, and so far at, like she hasn't. Both of my kids are pretty confident about it.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: They joke around about it a little bit sometimes.
Katie: I just well yeah I just try to tell them like, you know, you both are different and like different. His needs are different than yours at all. It's like we're still putting him to bed. It's like, you know, like, I mean, we're getting, getting close to not having to do that anymore, I think. But like, I don't know, it really kind of feels like we failed sometimes when I hear that, but it's like, I don't know how much truth is behind it. I think sometimes it just says it to like, because he's like, upset about something, I don't know. But I also don't want to discount what he's saying. I don't know.
Caitlin: So well, it's whatever he's feeling in the moment.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: Like, can you go back and talk about it later? Like when he's not in his feels, does it help?
Katie: Sometimes.
Caitlin: Yeah, I think like so we went through a thing where we're definitely I think I would guess that from Desi's perspective, we are more strict with him than we are with Haven or it feels that way. and it's because of, you know, what I was saying earlier, like, they are just wired so differently. And with Desi, like, his feelings are a lot more surface. He, he really doesn't really hide them. And so and and also often he would sort of especially when he was younger get into these like sort of behavioral spirals where like he wouldn't stop doing whatever or he couldn't stop doing whatever it was that he was doing that was usually like really chaotic and sometimes dangerous. And in order to snap him out of it, we would have to, like, make a loud noise or like, yell really loud even, you know, like, rarely were we actually angry, but it was, you know, like something shocking that would snap him out of that. But it sounds loud and it sounds scary.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: And then he would be fine, you know, like. And then once he'd calmed down, then we could deal with whatever it is. But until that point, it's like, no, you have to sit over there until you can calm down. And with Haven, if I made a loud noise like that, or if I yelled at her, she would shut down and that would shut down the entire conversation. And that's that remains true. Kind of for both of them. Like with Desi, it's like he gets these sort of flashes of like anger or whatever, and then he can calm down and talk about it. And with Haven, it's like you have to sort of approach really delicately, you know, like, hey, you can't do that. You know, I'm not mad at you, but you have to stop doing whatever, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And some of it's choosing battles too. Like it really ticks Desi off that Haven leaves the TV on. She always leaves the TV on or like, leaves her socks all over the house because she always does that too. And it's like, I mean, what am I going to do? Like, I tell her to stop and she doesn't like, what am I going to do? Yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, they're really different journeys. So finding that place that's like it was helpful. The point to this story was that it was helpful to me to be like, hey, you've seen how she reacts. If I yell at her, you've seen what happens. Do you think that I should continue doing this thing knowing that it doesn't work? And he really was. And then like, it took a while, but probably around when he was ten, he was able to be like, oh yeah. I can see that that's not effective.
Katie: Yeah, I've kind of done something similar to that with Orson because they like how you're saying they don't respond to the same things. So like Edwin will definitely shut down it for like if it seems like we're being confrontational about anything, he's just like, ehhhh, you know, like I'll be like put his hands over his ear was like, I don't like, I know what you're going to say. I don't want to hear it, you know.
Caitlin: My gosh our kids are the same.
Katie: I know. And sometimes, like, I'll look at Orson and be like, you know, this is a difference. Yeah, but I think I need to maybe, like, talk to that more deeply with him about it because I think he's ready to understand it. And I think a change, maybe how he saw, how we approach things with both of them.
Caitlin: The like aging up definitely helps, I think like, Desi being older and being able to be like see when like now you can actually see what I'm talking about that feels different than being in the moment.
Katie: Yeah for sure.
Caitlin: Isn't that funny? It's like, Haven really shuts down to you if we get confrontational, you know, again, where it's like like with Desi, it's like, here's the long conversation about, like, the why and the how and the where and the, you know, like the resolution, you know, and then like, we'll get to the end of it and I'll be like, yes, I understand. And with Haven, it's like, you start down that path of like, this is, you know, this is the where the thing went off the rails and this is how it why it can't happen anymore. This is why it's dangerous or whatever the thing is. And she's just, like, fully checked out or she looks checked out like, ughh. So then afterwards, like my, my technique now is just like, okay, we're at the end of the talk. Can you repeat back what I said to you? Because I just need to know that you heard me. Like, I can tell that you're not engaged, but can you just tell me that you heard me? Yeah. Like, oh, my gosh, I hope this is going to be okay. It'll be okay.
Katie: It will.
Caitlin: Did you ever get that? And I'm curious to know if it still happens because I don't know if it's just like my circle of friends tends not to do this, but like, when I was a kid, I had friends whose family members would really, like, put, like specific stereotypes or roles on them, depending on birth order. Like, I had a friend who also had two sisters and somebody in her family had told her that, like she was the smart one and her middle sister was the pretty one, and her youngest sister was the funny one, and it really stuck with me. And then I was like, oh my gosh, it's that way in our family too. And for a while it was like, I don't know how it happened, but like, we all got those roles stuck in our heads to accept. It was like a little like I was the smart one. My middle sister was the funny one, and my youngest sister was the pretty one. I mean what the heck?
Katie: Yeah, I feel like that's like a lot of what I in quotes like, know about birth order is from stuff like that, because I feel like a lot of that happened when we were growing up. Yeah, it's that kind of like putting people in boxes. Not that that doesn't still happen in different ways, but...
Caitlin: I look back on it now and I wonder how much it affected the way my sisters see themselves. Like, it definitely affected the way that I saw myself. also, it's like weird to have adults sort of weigh in on, like the way that you look or like determine like, well, you're not the pretty one in the family. We were all are three. We were all smart and pretty and funny.
Katie: Yeah, yeah. And it's like what that does to you like, for your whole life, ya know? I mean, it's like, not even like just when you're a little, it's like this thing follows you. Unless you squash it.
Caitlin: Well and even, like, it got into me to the extent that, like, I really like, I'm not proud of this, but like, at one point, my youngest sister who's kind of a brilliant writer, like, she's really, really like sharp and funny. And she had shared something that she wrote in college, and I read it and I was like, oh my gosh, like it. And then I was, I'm just like, so ashamed that I was shocked. Like. And it was truly because I had this, like, whole role thing stuck in my head like, no, you're the pretty one. Like, you can't be funny and smart.
Katie: Yeah. And so stupid.
Caitlin: Like, what a waste of time.
Katie: Yeah, I feel like I got pegged as, like, being very emotional. and I don't know if it's because, like, I mean, I am emotional and I don't, and I was, I was like, I don't really understand why that's a bad thing. You know? It's like, because I would say, like my dad, he shows more emotion now. And I think he also like talks about how he regrets not doing certain things when we were younger, not doing like being there for my mom in certain ways and like where like he never would have emotionally gone there before. So I always kind of was like, it's weird. It's weird when people are not emotional. And it's like, my mom was really emotional to you. So I don't know. For me, it always felt like, I think that's when I kind of started seeing like gender specific type things. And it's like, okay, why is this a bad thing? You know, I don't know.
Caitlin: It's real. I mean, and I think that's the thing that's still around, you know.
Katie: I still like I'm like, I wonder, like if it would be as pronounced in a family of girls. I don't know, it's like, for me, it's interesting how like thinking like if I was the youngest of like four girls, how different that life would be. And, or it's like if Orson and Edwin were like a boy and a girl or two girls, it's like, how different when our whole family dynamic be and not like I would want it any different. But I don't know. I mean, that's just kind of where my mind goes sometimes and it's like it's very interesting to me. Like, like, does that matter? Like, does that make things easier or harder in certain situations? I don't know, I mean, we have what we have. So I'm not like wishing it away or wishing it different. It's just thoughts.
Caitlin: Yeah I don't know. And I think like there's parental baggage too, like whatever your parents brought to the scene. Like definitely whatever me and Devin bring to our own scene. And we definitely put our own perceptions on onto our kids, even though we try not to, you know, like even in this conversation where I'm like, you know, Desi is more emotional and he's, you know, blah, blah, blah, and Haven's more like this. It's like, I mean, they're both everybody's every way. But generally speaking. I wonder my, my middle sister just has one kid, and she I think she thinks about it a lot, but it's it's interesting when. So I have two kids. My middle sister Emily, has one kid, and then my youngest sister, Hannah, has two kids and Haven's the only girl in the bunch. And it's sort of interesting to see how the dynamics play out between the five cousins. And like, there's definitely, you know, with zero judgment, like, definitely you can tell that my nephew, who's an only child is, is, used to a different dynamic in his house, I mean, necessarily. Right. Because that's just how it is. Although if you asked him, he would tell you that he has a brother and that brother is his dog. you know, it's really cute.
Katie: That's kind of brother.
Caitlin: 100%.
Katie: That's very sweet.
Caitlin: Yeah, it's super cute.
Katie: Yeah, I think about that too. Like, how different would it be if Orson had just been born an only child? I mean, I think he thinks life would be so much better right that way sometimes. But obviously, that said, it's like, I can't imagine not having Edwin. I don't know, it's so bizarre.
Caitlin: Do you ever think about how Orson would be? Do you think about that? So I think about that with Desi.
Katie: Yes, I do.
Caitlin: And I think Haven has improved the quality of his life and the way that he is as a person, infinitely.
Katie: That's great. I think I think the same thing. I think Edwin like, lightens things for Orson. And I think just the way that he see how differently they see things. Edwin is really funny too. So I think it's interesting to like, see Orson, see all these things coming out of Edwin, I don't know. Yeah.
Caitlin: Yeah. I think Haven wears down his, his edges a little bit like and makes him more flexible. Yeah. Like I think that's what he needed, you know, somebody to show him that. Like, it's okay to rough it up a little bit.
Katie: Yeah, I like that.
Caitlin: Can you believe that summer reading is almost over? You have until Wednesday, July 31st to complete your summer reading activities. Once you have all 50 circles filled, you can come pick up your Summer Reading 2024 t shirt between August 1st and 14th. Learn more about summer reading and our recommended activities in our show notes.
Caitlin: Katie, do you remember finding out that you were pregnant with your second baby?
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: Were you excited about it?
Katie: I was excited because we were, unlike our first pregnancy, we had to try a little harder for this one. So Orson, I mean, when we had Orson, I think we've talked about this before, but, like, I was expecting it to be a while. Right? And it happened like right away.
Caitlin: The same story here.
Katie: And then with Edwin, I think I took like six months. Which I wasn't expecting.
Caitlin: So you guys were all in on having a second kid. Yeah I was all in. It took us. So it really Desi was a wonderful baby who we both like. We're 100% all in on and loved more than anything. But he was a handful. Like he was not an easy baby. And so I kind of knew around when he was two, when things started to chill out a little bit, I was like, I think, I don't think I'm done. But Devin was not really on board. I think for a while, and I think finally changed his mind about when Desi was three. So Desi was four when Haven was born. So it was like we were pretty fast with her too. Did you tell Orson right away?
Katie: I think, I wasn't feeling well. like. I mean, I wasn't, like, throwing up, but I was, like, nauseous all the time. and like. Like, we were going out and doing a lot of stuff for, like. And then all of a sudden, like, that wasn't happening, you know? So, but he was like. Like he had, he was like, only had just turned two. So. Yeah.
Caitlin: Yeah Desi was three. I remember some sometimes I'm a fanfare kind of person. So like, I knew I like I pretty much knew right away when I was pregnant because that feeling is so specific. At least it was for me like that. It's like a very specific kind of nauseated that I was like.
Katie: The tiredness.
Caitlin: Yeah, this is something. Yeah. so I went home and I took a test and it was positive. And so I was like trying to come up with like a cute way to tell Desi and then to, like, convey the information to Devin, like, in a cute way. And like, it did not work at all. Like Desi, I went to school, I went to Desi's school and picked him up and I was like, buddy, you're going to be a big brother. And he was just kind of like, fire truck. It's like, no big brother. He was like street sweeper. So like he was not, he did not care at all. And Devin was kind of like, okay, here we go. Like, all right.
Katie: Yeah. So thinking back on it with, with Mike, I mean, he, I think he wanted to have a second, but I think even with Orson, like, he was older, so like, he when we had Orson, I think he was like 44. And so he was like 47 when we had Edwin. And I think for him, that's always been like, You know, you know, just because, yeah, I'm an older dad and like, it is different. But I think at the same time, like this was the time. Yeah. Right. You know, it's like it it wouldn't have happened any sooner for us. But I think if it had happened earlier in his life, like it would have been, you know, when obviously I've been the same story. So, yeah. So I don't think it necessarily took convincing. I think it was just more of like, kind of like an existential thing, you know.
Caitlin: I totally get that. I think that was some of Devin's stuff, too. He wasn't he wasn't, you know, quite that advanced. But like, he was he turned 40, the year that Haven was born. And so I think like for him, I mean, he was 40 and then she was born in September. So I think for him he was kind of like. How like I'm already tired and like, you know, sort of doing that math that's like, well you know, I'm going to be this old when she's in college and I'm going to be this old, you know, which I totally get it makes sense. But like, you guys like, I think that was the only time it was going to happen. We definitely weren't ready. Yeah, for when we went for it. Yeah. I don't think we would have been good parents if we had tried earlier.
Katie: No.
Caitlin: But, you know, ups and downs. Did you do any like once you found out, did you do any preparation with Orson like books or.
Katie: I mean, I know we were at the library all the time, so I know that we got lots of books about that. And I think, like, when I was, like, started showing more, I think that's when, like, when my body was changing, he can see it. I think that's when like I really started like talking with him about it, like trying to get him hyped up.
Caitlin: Did he ever get there like Desi never got there?
KatieL I think it was like there it was just like a disassociation. I mean, it was like why can't you pick me up? But I would like you to pick me exactly. And like, even after Edwin was born, like, like we would see some on the street or like, at the farmers market, and it's like, oh, yeah, this my brother Edwin, we got him from the hospital like.
Caitlin: Just picked him up.
Katie: This is totally like, you know, I don't know.
Caitlin: Did he get to go to the hospital?
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: So that is a sad thing for me. Like, I really wanted. I don't know why it's like, that is a moment that I wanted. I wanted Desi to come to the hospital and, like, meet the baby there, and there was some weird flu going around.
Katie: Oh, yeah.
Caitlin: Do you remember that? And so kids weren't allowed in the maternity ward at the hospital at all.
Katie: That was the same when Orson was born, because like my niece at the time, I lived in Indianapolis. So my nieces and nephews were trying to come. And they wouldn't let them in.
Caitlin: So that was. Yeah, I was your Haven was when they were twin for almost the same. Yeah. That's the same time.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: I thought that was so disappointing. So I had to go, and I had a C-section, so it was not like my physical best, but I remember, like, going downstairs. I had to go downstairs, and I was moving so slow to, like, see Desi without the baby. And my mom was there with him. It was like. It was really sad. Yeah, it was kind of disappointing. And we were so stressed out, like, Devin was having an anxiety fit just about leaving Desi alone with my mom for a couple days. We had never left him, you know, with anybody. And of course, he was fine. I don't know why we thought my mom couldn't handle it. Of course she can handle it. But. So there was that, too. So, like, I was spent. You know, like, whereas when Desi was born, it was this sort of beautiful, loving time. When Haven was born, I was alone, like, so much and so tired and, like, it kind of felt like, like nobody was taking care of me.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: Which is sort of selfish, but also like, I felt like when Desi was born, it was like all about, like, how can I help you? And, like, what can I teach you? And how can I show you? And like, you know, I felt like I was really part of the process. And when Haven was born, it was like, oh, you know what you're doing? And I was like, I kind of don't anymore, like, I forgot. And also like, she's different than he is. And also like, can somebody help me? Like, it was sad.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, I felt that too. But to make you feel a little bit better, having Orson come to the hospital was not as magical as. It's not really. Because at the time, I don't know why we. We waited so long to potty train him, but, like, I mean, he was totally ready, like, earlier, but I think he was like two and a half or maybe even two and three quarters because he turned three two days before I was born. Oh, wow. So they're like only two days apart. So like, I'm we are, like, trying to get him to go to the bathroom. We had this like, you know, his seat with us and everything. And I'm like in the bed with Edwin, like breastfeeding him or something and like, totally like disheveled. I mean, like, literally gave birth from, like 12 hours before. And Orson is in the bathroom, like, screaming, bloody murder, right? The nurse came in and she was like, what's going on in here? Like, I think she thought we were like hurt- And then other than we are leaving the hospital, all of us going to the car and like Mike was trying to put him inside the car and he was like, somebody help me.
Caitlin: Oh no. Oh my gosh.
Katie; Somebody help! Like, oh my gosh, like this kid is totally like so yeah. So that was his introduction to I don't know. It was like it was just it was...
Caitlin: That does make me feel. And it's like we didn't.
Katie: Even know, like, he could string those words together. I mean, obviously he was three, so he is talking, but it's like I had never heard him say that before. He had never done that, putting him in the car before, and all of a sudden were in the parking garage at the hospital.
Caitlin: And it really echoes in there too.
Katie: I mean, it was just like the, yeah, the intertwining of so much like, joy, but also like, absolute, unbelievably.
Caitlin: White hot panic.
Katie: Yes. it's just like. I mean, the nurse thought we were hurting, in the back, I mean, oh, my gosh, it was so bad. So bad.
Caitlin: Like, why do they do this to us? Why do they do this?
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: I will say we didn't do a ton of preparation. I think like I would have been into it, bringing home like new baby books and stuff for Desi, but I mean, he really could not have cared less like, at all. So, like, I think we tried a couple things, but more helpful, I think are books that that I could read or things that I could find to read that prepared me for what it was like to have, two kids at home because, one of our friends told us that it more than doubles the work that you do. Like bringing home a second baby more than doubles it. And I could not believe it before I had a second kid. And I was like, oh, it really does. It does feel like this is more than twice as much as what I was dealing with. Yeah, but one of the great things, you know, as always, about our library is that we have made it super easy. I think if you are looking for, you know, those new baby books with those books, like if you're like, you know, I know that both of us are the kind of family that that use books to, to sort of ease into whatever it is that we're trying to ease into. And we have a whole section of picture books that are just new, baby, you know? So whether it's bringing home your first baby and it's comforting for you as a parent or it is, you know, reading a book to your second or third or however, you know, however many siblings you've got at home. To ease that.
Katie: We have a sibling section too, right?
Caitlin: We do. We have a sibling section, and a new baby section.
Katie: I thought I was just making it up.
Caitlin: Nope. I'm pretty sure you're right about that. And then, as always, we have our parenting collection. And I was sort of zipping through that before I came in here to record this. And we have some really good books, I think, to help. I mean, I keep saying ease the transition, but it really is like it's, it's a big it's a big change.
Katie: And, and it's one of those things that like is ever evolving.
Caitlin: Yep.
Katie: As per our conversation.
Caitlin: It's never a dull moment.
Katie: Let the library come to you. The bookmobile will be hosting events at select locations in August to connect you with early childhood resources and celebrate books from around the world. Check out our show notes to find a spot near you.
Caitlin: Katie. What kept you going this month?
Katie: What kept me going this month? I would say, kind of like just doing things with my kids. Like, last night, it was just Edwin and I, I went to a baseball game, and so, like, we went to, the park by the lake, and it was just, like, really magical. It's like a beautiful night and, like, really good weather and, like, I don't know, Edwin was having fun, like, just, like, climbing on everything and playing. And we were talking, and it was just, like, real special vibes, you know? And I feel like I've had moments like that with both of them in the past month. And like with Orson, we've been playing a lot of Frisbee, which like, I love and, and yeah, it's just been really fun to, like, have those moments with both of them. And they're very different moments and, like, speaks to their different personalities. But, yeah, I'm just I'm trying to find those more and not just for my relationship with them, but for myself, you know? Like those moments definitely come in and like, there are times that I can, like, think back on and kind of remember how I felt in that moment. And it kind of grounds me when I need it.
Caitlin: Yep. I think to, summer, summer when you're at children's library and doesn't always feel like summer, it just because it's so it's so, like aggressively ramped up, at work and I think like finding those nights where, you know, like it just or those days in the summer where it kind of falls into place and it feels good. Yeah. I remember, you know, last summer having a couple of those and in my head consciously saying to myself, like, this is summer. Yeah, like, this is summer. I'm having summer right now. Yeah, I love that.
Katie: Yeah.
Caitlin: Mine has zero to do with my kids. And that is on, Saturday night, both of the kids went to a sleepover. And so Devin and I found ourselves sort of spontaneously with the house all to ourselves. And I know I've been talking about moving a lot in the last couple of episodes, but we, you know, we moved in March, so we've been in our house for about three months now, and it was clean. We had cleaned our house that day and it, we were binge watching a TV show, which is something that we used to do, you know, before we had kids and we had ordered food and it started to rain and we could hear the rain on the roof, and it just it was like, we are in our house and it feels so good. Like it just felt so nice to, like, be there in that moment with him doing a thing that we used to enjoy. Like it. It just felt like us. It was so great.
Katie: Yeah. So I love that for you.
Caitlin: Me too, me too. We need more summer moments.
Katie: We need more.
Katie: That's it for us this month. Remember to keep in touch with us. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at podcast at Skokie Library at info.
Caitlin: And don't forget if you've enjoyed this episode or previous episodes. Rate and review us on your favorite podcaster.
Katie: This has been Katie and Caitlin with "Your Family, Your Library," produced by Amber Hayes and sound engineered by Paul Knutson.
Caitlin: See you, bye.
Does birth order determine your child's personality? Katie and Caitlin share their views on birth order in their own family and chat about how they introduced their older children to their new siblings.